Is and that

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

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If you put your children in English-language preschools and schools with other children being raised by very fluent but nonnative parents and in which the teachers are also very fluent but nonnative speakers, and if you read books to your children that were written by "actual" native speakers (in addition to ones that were written by very fluent but nonnative speakers), then sure, why not? If there's a big enough community of such children of nonnative speakers, they'll develop a new dialect of English that's unlike any existing dialect, but it's still their own native dialect and just as "real" and valid as any dialect of English that's in the linguistic "Apostolic Succession".

I don't think it would be the same. Looks like you don't know the difference between a native speaker and a non-native speaker. If you stay only with non-native speakers, your language doesn't become as rich as native speech. I observed that within families of non-native speakers of Breton, for example.

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How do you think Israeli Hebrew got off the ground? By nonnative speakers raising children in what was to them a foreign language.

Everybody knows Israeli Hebrew isn't the same language as the traditional language... It has been revived, which means it's completely different. Differences in grammar, pronunciation, vocabulary... And that's why the distinction is always made between Israeli Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew.

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Children mostly acquire language from other children, not from their parents, anyway.

I wouldn't say "mostly". Thank God they also learn from adults, because children don't speak as well as adults...

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Is léir nach bhfuil aithne agat ar duine ar bith as Béal Feirste a bhfuil Gaeilge dhúchasach aige. Ach is thusa an saineolaí i gcúrsaí dúchasacha de réir dealraimh!

Bhí aithne agam ar dhaoiní as BF a tógadh le Gaeilg. Ba mhór an duifear eadar a gcuid Gaeilge agus cionn mhuitir Ghaeltacht Thír Chonaill. I gcaint na ndaoiní as BF bhí fuaimniú faoin thionchar (throm) a' Bhéarla, Béarlachas agus rudaí "caighdeánacha". Agus níos lú cora cainte dúchasacha.

Cibith, is féidir nach gá ghabháil ar aghaidh ins an díospóireacht seo : cha ndéanaimse athchomhairle agus is cosúil nach ndéanfaidh tusa athchomhairle ach an oiread.

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 3001

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

I went through the whole Gaelscoil system from pre-school to secondary and now third-level. In primary school etc.. We always spoke Irish with a distinctive Kerry influence. Before Secondary school, before I switched to a Gaeltacht Secondary school, we always spelled words like dearmad- dearúd or tirim as trim, as they reflected our pronounciation of the words (Kerry). In Secondary school we were not allowed to do so, because they were deemed as wrong, they are NOT wrong..they are more correct, in fact, than the Standardised Irish because they reflect a living language rather than the artificial Caighdeán. Some aspects of the caighdeán aren't in any dialect of Irish- how can those aspects be judged as more authorative than the dialectal ones?

I also found out in Secondary school that the Irish we were learning wasn't the Irish as spoken in the Gaeltacht or that was spoken by people 60 years ago. I felt absolutely disgusted and betrayed. I lost all passion I had in my language, that we were speaking and writing a language as devised in an office. The fact of the matter is people aren't given a choice to learn a dialect, in fact those that begin to learn Irish do not even know that they are learning a standardised version. Its only when they become competent enough that they realise so...and then most are utterly surprised and decide to learn a dialect instead. But soon find out that the sources for doing so are few and far between.

Many sources that claim to be dialectal Irish are just standardised Irish in disguise, so that's just wrong to lead people into thinking that they are learning a dialect when they are not- STOP fucking standardising Irish literature by native Gaeltacht authors its pure butchery. Though I understand why a dialect was introduced, I do not like its unfavourable bi-products: As the Irish language is threatened in Gaeltacht regions basically because the language isn't being passed on... Gaeltacht children learn standardised Irish in school and they know no better, soon the standard will oust the native and CORRECT Irish of the Gaeltachts. Though, dialects aren't being destroyed by the caighdeán they are being replaced by them. I am saying "correct" because I will no longer allow a person in an office, who himself/ or herself isn't probably a native speaker and is full of utter Béarlachas and terminology from the Coiste Téarmaíochta, dictate to me as to what "correct" Irish is. In my gaeltacht Secondary school we felt that disgusted and betrayed as having to spell certain words like Gaolainn as Gaeilge that we use to spell them Gaolainn/ Gaeilge on our exams. We used to put our Irish alongside the standard. Irish people rise up in arms especially when they are told they cannot do something or they have to do something in a certain way and that's how we felt.

The fact that native Irish speakers aren't able to spell specific words because they only exist in their sub-dialect and they haven't ever seen them before is true. For instance the Ring Irish word for "accident" is Ciotrainn or Citrinn (kit-ring- English phonetics)- I don't know because I have never seen it spelled. That word's capacity to survive is greatly reduced.

"Wait" (standard is fanacht)- Ring- (fuireacht, but pronounced "f'reach, where the "ui" is báite). If you asked a Ring person to spell "fuireach" they probably spell it as "freach" because they have never seen it before. The reason I know is because I have seen "fuireach" in a 18th century Emigrant letter, written by Padraig Piarais Condúin, who himself is from an extinct Gaeltacht in Baile Mhac Óda, close to where I live.

Ring Irish pronounces "rith" as though it was from the earlier spelling "ruith" (ruck) not (rih) or (rick- as you would expect in Ring as "th" can be a "ch" sound, if it reflected the modern spelling "rith").

I understand the positives of the standard but it is an awful sacrifice to pay, the Caighdeán for me is a "Pyrric Victory".

I totally agree :good:

Bríd Mhór · **Joined:** Sun 28 Aug 2011 8:29 pm **Posts:** 3001

an_t-uaithneach wrote:

A Bhríd Mhór, why was the gap between your spoken dialect of Irish and the written standard of Irish different from the gap between your spoken dialect of English and the written standard of English? Because the English-language textbooks you used, and English-language newspapers you read, and virtually everything else in English you read for that matter weren't written in your native dialect of English either.

Well I didn't have a spoken dialect of English as a child. I learnt standard English from the beginning. At first in school then from the media.
In later years, as an adult, my English may have become a bit more dialectical alright. But never far from standard.

Things are different now in the Gaeltacht. Children are bilingual from the beginning even if raised only through Irish because there are so many outside influences now - computer, television, peers with English. In my day hearing English was rarer, it was really a foreign language in the Gaeltacht.

I'd hear my parents speak English with tinkers at the door, in shops in Galway etc and I wouldn't have a clue what was being said. We didn't have a television until I was nearly ten years old. We did have a radio and music records. There was one particular programme on the radio that taught Irish (I think it was Eoinín Ó Suilleabháin's show) and I learnt a few words of English from that. I remember specifically learning that the English for "cathaoir" was "chair" and being surprised by it.
Another incident was in school - a tinker family lived in my village for a while and the kids went to school here. One girl was a bit older than us and she was playing games with us in the yard. She was playing train and she said "hold on". I had no idea what she meant. The fact that I remember that from the time I was 6 or 7 shows how surprised I was.

an_t-uaithneach · **Posted:** Sun 30 Sep 2012 9:30 pm

Bríd Mhór wrote:

Well I didn't have a spoken dialect of English as a child. I learnt standard English from the beginning. At first in school then from the media.

I didn't realize you were a native Irish speaker. It says "Foghlaimeoir" over your picture in your posts, so I thought you were a very fluent but nonnative speaker!

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

All members are tagged "Foghlaimeoir" on this forum... no matter who you are :mrgreen:

(I don't know why, actually)

Breandán · **Posted:** Mon 01 Oct 2012 12:19 am

an_t-uaithneach wrote:

Bríd Mhór wrote:

Well I didn't have a spoken dialect of English as a child. I learnt standard English from the beginning. At first in school then from the media.

I didn't realize you were a native Irish speaker. It says "Foghlaimeoir" over your picture in your posts, so I thought you were a very fluent but nonnative speaker!

When we set up the site as Irish Learners' Forum, we were going to have ranks representing people fluency, but decided it was too difficult to measure objectively. And Bríd herself was opposed to being singled out as a "native speaker".

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. There are non-native speakers with near-native fluency and native speakers who are sometimes shaky on spelling or grammar. No matter how fluent a person is, there is always more to be learned about a language, even one's native language. Nobody knows it all. We come here to share our knowledge and learn from each other, hopefully to broaden the awareness of the Irish language.

So, as the owner of this forum, I ask everyone to follow Bríd's example and put aside their arrogance and pride and to assume the title of "Foghlaimeoir" in the spirit of true learning. (Those who don't understand this principle have a little more to learn about life than those who do. I hope that those who do understand will also be tolerant of those who don't

) One of the hardest things for human beings to understand is that there are no hard and fast "facts" - all "truths" are approximations. (I too hope to achieve that level of awareness one day ... :aingeal:

)

Personally, I think there is a need for a standard but have always been intrigued that it doesn't better fit the average of the living dialects. (Why is it amárach, when two of the three major dialects say amáireach?) I'd prefer something along the lines of a two-out-of-three approach, i.e., use the median form of the three major dialects.

I also think native speakers should be encouraged to write their dialects phonetically, i.e., ím instead of im, if that is how they pronounce it. (I am not talking about IPA, just about using regular Irish spelling to spell the dialect words.)

I think there should also be a pronunciation guide based on the native phonemes along the lines of the pronunciation in Buntús Cainte. I don't think it is too late to stop the incursion of non-native, i.e., anglicised, phonemes into the language. People should be made aware of the difference and encouraged to adopt the traditional sounds. After all, anglicising Irish makes a pidgin of it, and swamps the airwaves with sloppy Irish.

I believe there is room here for all opinions (even the ones I don't necessarily agree with - and it is good to discuss these things) but I'd particularly like to work towards greater dialect awareness even within the standard and to fill in the gaps that people have been finding when learning a dialect or representing their dialects in spelling.

I would also like to fill in the gaps that we non-natives have in raising our kids in Irish (I have a three- and a five-year-old). This includes providing resources for people to teach their kids particular dialects as well as pointing parents towards better resources. (There is a lot of crap Irish out there that needs to be pointed out to stop the blind from leading the blind in a downward spiral.)

But hey that's just my opinion, there's plenty of room for everyone. :winkgrin:

Lughaidh · **Joined:** Thu 15 Sep 2011 12:06 pm **Posts:** 2436

Quote:

Personally, I think there is a need for a standard but have always been intrigued that it doesn't better fit the average of the living dialects. (Why is it amárach, when two of the three major dialects say amáireach?) I'd prefer something along the lines of a two-out-of-three approach, i.e., use the median form of the three major dialects.

In my opinion, instead of creating a standard, even composed of the most common things in the 3 dialects - which would made, again, an artificial dialect - they should have chosen one living dialect as the standard. I mean, not the only dialect that should be taught and broadcasted etc, but the dialect that should be used for the few official texts that would be read by all Irish speakers.
And then, the best dialect for that, in my opinion (no, I'm not going to say Gaoth Dobhair Irish :darklaugh:

) is one of the Connemara dialects, maybe not Cois Fhairrge because it drops all the h sounds which may make it difficult to understand sometimes (when it's spoken) but some Connemara dialect with the h's (Ros Muc, Carna, an Cheathrú Rua...). Because Connemara Irish has the biggest number of native speakers, and because it's central so it's not too far from Munster Irish nor from Donegal Irish.

And of course, local dialects for everything else, especially regional stuff and teaching.

I think everybody would have been happy like that. Even the people who aren't from Connemara, in my opinion, would prefer it if the standard written language were one real dialect from elsewhere rather than an artificial one. It would give recognition to the language of the people...

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

AnBraonach wrote:

An Cionnfhaolach wrote:

STOP fucking standardising Irish literature by native Gaeltacht authors its pure butchery.

I'm sorry, but idiotic individual projects do not amount to reasons why a standard should not exist. The goal of this discussion (and I mean in general, not here on this board) should be to establish a balance between the dialects and the standard. Please do not presume that all native Gaeltacht speakers feel that the standard should not exist - that's not the case! Yes, the problem is worsened by state negligence, but I feel you are under-estimating the number of Gaeltacht speakers involved in Irish-language term creation, for example.

What's frustrating for me is the extremity of the positions here, bordering on sectarianism at times. I'm more optimistic I think. I don't think the dialects are going anywhere, even if they're under threat. The language is experiencing unprecedented growth (at least in modern times) and finds itself in a state of flux. Let's hope things balance out.

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idiotic individual projects

Do you mean my life experiences of growing up with my education carried out entirely through the medium of Irish, having experienced both Gaelscoil and Gaeltacht schooling? How are your life experiences or your own personal opinions less idiotic than mine? I'd love to know, may I ask what is your own story with the language? If you read my opinion properly, without being blinded by your own opinion, you would know that I never suggested that there shouldn't be a standard. If you were a member of this forum for more than two or three days (welcome by the way :hullo:

) you would know my opinions on the standard and how necessary it is in a administrative, teaching and legislation context- though I don't agree with the present Caighdeán in its entirety or its hostility towards Gaeltacht written Irish. See:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1477 last comment

and

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1477&start=10 last comment

I was highlighting the fact that there are inadequate resources out there for people wishing to learn a dialect of Irish. I was also highlighting the fact that hardly any Irish written by Native Gaeltacht speakers gets published, without going through a standardising filter. I don't want to read the standardised version, I want to read the version from the dialect of the creator, with its rich vocabulary, with some words that may even not exist outside that dialect or sub-dialect but will fall out of use if they are not used. Thirdly, I wanted to address the misconception that many learners have when they begin learning Irish; that the Irish they are learning is the version that has developed naturally from the time Irish first started to be spoken by the people of this Island right up until today. The fact is, it is not, the Irish they are learning was conceived during the 40s, 50s and 60s, by some who were native speakers and/ or academics.

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I don't think the dialects are going anywhere, even if they're under threat.

What are you basing that idea on? Dialectal style Irish is fading at an unprecedented rate. For example in Ring the "ing" pronounciation of "ainn/inn" endings has nearly disappeared. "Ní'l/ Níl (Ní fhuil)" has ousted the use of "Nín", "ag iasgach/iascach" has become "ag iascaireacht" and Aimsir Chaite Sr.Bhriathar used to be lenited, now its not. There are many more examples of which that would have been prevalent among people of a generation or so ago. Other features have remained strong such as the use of "Dé Chúis" for "Cén fath", "Thá" instead of "Tá" and the peculiar pronunciation of "i" and "middle and ending "th".

Another problem that has become clear in the last generation is the mispronunciation of Irish words by some Gaeltacht children. There is definitely an influence from English pronunciation: e.g
lae (lay), buachaill (bukill) etc... Luckily, we had an amhranaiocht class every week, taught by the principal who herself is a two time winner of Corn Uí Riada and she used to discuss the older aspects of the dialect or Irish in general as well as try to improve pronunciation.

If this problem is bad in the Gaeltachts it is dire among Galltacht fluent or "native" speakers. A lot of Galltacht Irish is heavily influenced by English pronunciation and syntax. I am not saying all Galltacht Irish speakers cannot pronounce properly but those that do usually have experienced Gaeltacht Irish pronunciation or have been informed by somebody who does. Native Irish speakers that solely base their pronunciation on that learned in Galltacht schools (e.g the Caighdeán) or from parents that have never experienced Gaeltacht Irish cannot pronounce Irish properly and they speak a language that has been greatly influenced by English syntax and pronunciation.

Don't get me wrong I have huge respect for people who decide to speak Irish as the family language, even though they are not natives themselves. I believe these people should be commended for doing so. We have a committed member on this forum; Saoirse who does just that. But I do believe these people that choose to do so should draw more heavily from Gaeltacht pronunciation, idioms and vocabulary. Saoirse does just that, she doesn't just take influences from one dialect but all of them and that's brilliant.

I think it is wrong to say that fluent "native" Galltacht speakers, who have not drawn influences from the dialects (e.g pronunciation, vocab etc...) should be viewed as being of a parallel standard to someone in the Gaeltacht where the transmission of Irish from generation to generation has not been severed- i.e to say Gaeltacht Irish and strictly urban Irish are on par. I do believe however, if families try to imitate the Gaeltacht people then they will reach an excellent standard and then they should be viewed as being of the same standard as their Gaeltacht counterparts.

Quote:

Please do not presume that all native Gaeltacht speakers feel that the standard should not exist - that's not the case! Yes, the problem is worsened by state negligence, but I feel you are under-estimating the number of Gaeltacht speakers involved in Irish-language term creation, for example.

I am well aware that Gaeltacht speakers are involved in Irish language term creation, some of which is good and some of which is cringe worthy, particularly those that just sound like English. Leaving them in English would be better. The problem with modern Irish of the 20th and 21st century is it has become translated English, a medium for expressing English idioms and ideas. That's not the language I want to speak. I know it is impossible to have Irish that is free of English but the influences that English bears nowadays on the Caighdeán system are ridiculous.

I feel you are underestimating the amount of Gaeltacht native speakers that have a dislike, and that's putting it mildly, for the Caighdeán.

Quote:

The goal of this discussion (and I mean in general, not here on this board) should be to establish a balance between the dialects and the standard.

I agree, I don't agree with the standard in its current form though. Some aspects of the Caighdeán are not prevalent in any of the dialects- nobody but learners and natives of learnes say "conas atá tú"- it is contorted Munster Irish- in Munster: Cionna(u)s/Conas 't(h)ánn tú/ Conas/ cionnus taoi, Cén chaoi ina bhuil tú, Ulster Goidé mar atá tú? Alba: Ciamar atha thu.

I can't speak for every dialect but: The use of everyday Munster (Tuiseal Ginideach and Tuiseal Tabharthach) are not accepted by the Caighdeán: e.g Tuiseal Tabharthach uatha: "teangain", Tuiseal Ginideach uatha "teangan" etc...

The Caighdeán in my opinion blights proper dialectal pronunciation on some words: e.g rith- ruith, bia- bídh, rachaidh- raghaidh etc...

The Caighdeán takes very little influence from Donegal Irish, that needs to improve- instead it has stigmatised Ulster Irish as being difficult- its only difficult because we haven't heard much of it. I understand the Caighdeán is based heavily on Connacht Irish because she is seen as the bridge, the middle ground between Ulster and Munster Irish.

More native Gaeltacht Irish people, especially those from Ulster and Munster should be seen on TG4, to promote the understanding of Ulster Irish and correct pronunciation from all the dialects. Believe it or not, but a lot of the programs on TG4 have bad pronunciation, especially cartoons- where the pronunciation should be at its strongest as it is aimed at children. Comhrá and an Nuacht are about the best and some of the Ros na Rún characters.

Stop changing the Ginideach's if they are still being used by native speakers: example: Cú (T.A uatha), Cúnna (T. A iolra), Coin (T.T uatha), Cúibh/ Coibh (T.T iolra) , Con (T.G uatha), gCon (T.G iolra), Caighdeán: http://focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=c%C3%BA

The use of native words used in the Gaeltacht to describe things: i.e arán tíortha (tósta), tigh/teach tabhairne, tigh óil (béar), mathúna/mathghamhna/ airt (béar)- gone archaic.

I don't want works written by native speakers to be standardised, because I not only use these works as enjoyment but I also use them to study the language within them.

Although I do understand there are more pressing issues for instance curriculum changes etc... and how after 14 years people can't really speak it? or they can but choose not to.

I would like to see a Caighdeán that is more flexible in displaying Gaeltacht pronunciation as well.

Quote:

What's frustrating for me is the extremity of the positions here, bordering on sectarianism at times. I'm more optimistic I think. The language is experiencing unprecedented growth (at least in modern times) and finds itself in a state of flux. Let's hope things balance out.

The reason some peoples’ views here may seem totally right winged stems from of a lack of balance between the Caighdeán and Gaeltacht Irish. Native speakers or learners of Gaeltacht Irish (like myself) want a dialect that is inclusive rather than exclusive. For instance being told that dearúd/ dearmhad is an incorrect spelling is unjust as is standardising Literature produced by native Irish Gaeltacht speakers, when there is no need to. The choice of learning your own dialect in school- where applicable, I understand teacher numbers and the difficulty around that. Thankfully, I'm in university now and we are given a choice to write Gaeltacht or standard or both- it’s nice to have that choice.

Yes the language is enjoying growth, but how much of the Irish being spoken is just translated English (or English in disguise) and the quality is quite poor. We need to get away from translating English and reach back for the very poetic soul of the language. There are also people who answer “yes” to the Irish census question, and if they were asked it in Irish a lot of those that answered yes wouldn't be able to understand it- statistics are often misleading. What is brilliant is people's attitude to Irish has changed

!

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

An Lon Dubh wrote:

Quote:

The fact that native Irish speakers aren't able to spell specific words because they only exist in their sub-dialect and they haven't ever seen them before is true. For instance the Ring Irish word for "accident" is Ciotrainn or Citrinn (kit-ring- English phonetics)- I don't know because I have never seen it spelled. That word's capacity to survive is greatly reduced.

It's Ciot-thurraing in the old spelling and in more recent Déise novels and letters Ciotarainn.

Go raibh míle maith agat Lon Dubh, tháir go hiúntach ar fad! Cár thángais ar an seana-litriughadh- Seanchain(n)t na nDéise, an ea? Cá bhféadfainn-se teacht aires na samplaíbh san?- An í an Linn Bhuidhe an leabhar nú an iris-leabhair 'na bhfuilir ag labhairt fé?

An Cionnfhaolach · **Joined:** Fri 09 Mar 2012 6:16 pm **Posts:** 1527

Breandán wrote:

We all have our strengths and weaknesses. There are non-native speakers with near-native fluency and native speakers who are sometimes shaky on spelling or grammar. No matter how fluent a person is, there is always more to be learned about a language, even one's native language. Nobody knows it all. We come here to share our knowledge and learn from each other, hopefully to broaden the awareness of the Irish language.

So, as the owner of this forum, I ask everyone to follow Bríd's example and put aside their arrogance and pride and to assume the title of "Foghlaimeoir" in the spirit of true learning. (Those who don't understand this principle have a little more to learn about life than those who do. I hope that those who do understand will also be tolerant of those who don't

) One of the hardest things for human beings to understand is that there are no hard and fast "facts" - all "truths" are approximations. (I too hope to achieve that level of awareness one day ... :aingeal:

)

I also think native speakers should be encouraged to write their dialects phonetically, i.e., ím instead of im, if that is how they pronounce it. (I am not talking about IPA, just about using regular Irish spelling to spell the dialect words.)

there's plenty of room for everyone. :winkgrin:

Lughaidh wrote:

Quote:

Personally, I think there is a need for a standard but have always been intrigued that it doesn't better fit the average of the living dialects. (Why is it amárach, when two of the three major dialects say amáireach?) I'd prefer something along the lines of a two-out-of-three approach, i.e., use the median form of the three major dialects.

In my opinion, instead of creating a standard, even composed of the most common things in the 3 dialects - which would made, again, an artificial dialect - they should have chosen one living dialect as the standard. I mean, not the only dialect that should be taught and broadcasted etc, but the dialect that should be used for the few official texts that would be read by all Irish speakers.
And then, the best dialect for that, in my opinion (no, I'm not going to say Gaoth Dobhair Irish :darklaugh:

) is one of the Connemara dialects, maybe not Cois Fhairrge because it drops all the h sounds which may make it difficult to understand sometimes (when it's spoken) but some Connemara dialect with the h's (Ros Muc, Carna, an Cheathrú Rua...). Because Connemara Irish has the biggest number of native speakers, and because it's central so it's not too far from Munster Irish nor from Donegal Irish.

And of course, local dialects for everything else, especially regional stuff and teaching.

I think everybody would have been happy like that. Even the people who aren't from Connemara, in my opinion, would prefer it if the standard written language were one real dialect from elsewhere rather than an artificial one. It would give recognition to the language of the people...

I agree in theory, but your idea of this standard would only be used at the very national level, teaching cannot be done at the local level at the moment as their are not enough teachers that speak dialectal Irish, though I believe when possible, the local dialect should be taught, Ireland is to small a country, with to small of a Gaeltacht Irish speaking population, both native and learner for this to work- except maybe Gaeltacht schools, though it is the ideal scenario that all the schools in Munster would learn a dialect, if not Munster than some other. I think the least we should hope for is a Caighdeán that is flexible to Gaeltacht pronunciation and I would be happy to accept the reformed spelling to do so.

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