How are your life experiences or your own personal opinions less idiotic than mine? I'd love to know, may I ask what is your own story with the language? If you read my opinion properly, without being blinded by your own opinion, you would know that I never suggested that there shouldn't be a standard. If you were a member of this forum for more than two or three days (welcome by the way ) you would know my opinions on the standard and how necessary it is in a administrative, teaching and legislation context- though I don't agree with the present Caighdeán in its entirety or its hostility towards Gaeltacht written Irish.

I think it is wrong to say that fluent "native" Galltacht speakers, who have not drawn influences from the dialects (e.g pronunciation, vocab etc...) should be viewed as being of a parallel standard to someone in the Gaeltacht where the transmission of Irish from generation to generation has not been severed- i.e to say Gaeltacht Irish and strictly urban Irish are on par. I do believe however, if families try to imitate the Gaeltacht people then they will reach an excellent standard and then they should be viewed as being of the same standard as their Gaeltacht counterparts.

I feel you are underestimating the amount of Gaeltacht native speakers that have a dislike, and that's putting it mildly, for the Caighdeán.

I agree, I don't agree with the standard in its current form though. Some aspects of the Caighdeán are not prevalent in any of the dialects- nobody but learners and natives of learnes say "conas atá tú"- it is contorted Munster Irish- in Munster: Cionna(u)s/Conas 't(h)ánn tú/ Conas/ cionnus taoi, Cén chaoi ina bhuil tú, Ulster Goidé mar atá tú? Alba: Ciamar atha thu.

The Caighdeán takes very little influence from Donegal Irish, that needs to improve- instead it has stigmatised Ulster Irish as being difficult- its only difficult because we haven't heard much of it. I understand the Caighdeán is based heavily on Connacht Irish because she is seen as the bridge, the middle ground between Ulster and Munster Irish.

More native Gaeltacht Irish people, especially those from Ulster and Munster should be seen on TG4, to promote the understanding of Ulster Irish and correct pronunciation from all the dialects. Believe it or not, but a lot of the programs on TG4 have bad pronunciation, especially cartoons- where the pronunciation should be at its strongest as it is aimed at children. Comhrá and an Nuacht are about the best and some of the Ros na Rún characters.

I would like to see a Caighdeán that is more flexible in displaying Gaeltacht pronunciation as well.

Yes the language is enjoying growth, but how much of the Irish being spoken is just translated English (or English in disguise) and the quality is quite poor. We need to get away from translating English and reach back for the very poetic soul of the language. There are also people who answer “yes” to the Irish census question, and if they were asked it in Irish a lot of those that answered yes wouldn't be able to understand it- statistics are often misleading. What is brilliant is people's attitude to Irish has changed !

Do you mean my life experiences of growing up with my education carried out entirely through the medium of Irish, having experienced both Gaelscoil and Gaeltacht schooling? How are your life experiences or your own personal opinions less idiotic than mine? I'd love to know, may I ask what is your own story with the language? If you read my opinion properly, without being blinded by your own opinion, you would know that I never suggested that there shouldn't be a standard. If you were a member of this forum for more than two or three days (welcome by the way ) you would know my opinions on the standard and how necessary it is in a administrative, teaching and legislation context- though I don't agree with the present Caighdeán in its entirety or its hostility towards Gaeltacht written Irish. See:

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1477 last comment

and

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=1477&start=10 last comment

I was highlighting the fact that there are inadequate resources out there for people wishing to learn a dialect of Irish. I was also highlighting the fact that hardly any Irish written by Native Gaeltacht speakers gets published, without going through a standardising filter. I don't want to read the standardised version, I want to read the version from the dialect of the creator, with its rich vocabulary, with some words that may even not exist outside that dialect or sub-dialect but will fall out of use if they are not used. Thirdly, I wanted to address the misconception that many learners have when they begin learning Irish; that the Irish they are learning is the version that has developed naturally from the time Irish first started to be spoken by the people of this Island right up until today. The fact is, it is not, the Irish they are learning was conceived during the 40s, 50s and 60s, by some who were native speakers and/ or academics.



What are you basing that idea on? Dialectal style Irish is fading at an unprecedented rate. For example in Ring the "ing" pronounciation of "ainn/inn" endings has nearly disappeared. "Ní'l/ Níl (Ní fhuil)" has ousted the use of "Nín", "ag iasgach/iascach" has become "ag iascaireacht" and Aimsir Chaite Sr.Bhriathar used to be lenited, now its not. There are many more examples of which that would have been prevalent among people of a generation or so ago. Other features have remained strong such as the use of "Dé Chúis" for "Cén fath", "Thá" instead of "Tá" and the peculiar pronunciation of "i" and "middle and ending "th".

Another problem that has become clear in the last generation is the mispronunciation of Irish words by some Gaeltacht children. There is definitely an influence from English pronunciation: e.g
lae (lay), buachaill (bukill) etc... Luckily, we had an amhranaiocht class every week, taught by the principal who herself is a two time winner of Corn Uí Riada and she used to discuss the older aspects of the dialect or Irish in general as well as try to improve pronunciation.

If this problem is bad in the Gaeltachts it is dire among Galltacht fluent or "native" speakers. A lot of Galltacht Irish is heavily influenced by English pronunciation and syntax. I am not saying all Galltacht Irish speakers cannot pronounce properly but those that do usually have experienced Gaeltacht Irish pronunciation or have been informed by somebody who does. Native Irish speakers that solely base their pronunciation on that learned in Galltacht schools (e.g the Caighdeán) or from parents that have never experienced Gaeltacht Irish cannot pronounce Irish properly and they speak a language that has been greatly influenced by English syntax and pronunciation.

Don't get me wrong I have huge respect for people who decide to speak Irish as the family language, even though they are not natives themselves. I believe these people should be commended for doing so. We have a committed member on this forum; Saoirse who does just that. But I do believe these people that choose to do so should draw more heavily from Gaeltacht pronunciation, idioms and vocabulary. Saoirse does just that, she doesn't just take influences from one dialect but all of them and that's brilliant.

I think it is wrong to say that fluent "native" Galltacht speakers, who have not drawn influences from the dialects (e.g pronunciation, vocab etc...) should be viewed as being of a parallel standard to someone in the Gaeltacht where the transmission of Irish from generation to generation has not been severed- i.e to say Gaeltacht Irish and strictly urban Irish are on par. I do believe however, if families try to imitate the Gaeltacht people then they will reach an excellent standard and then they should be viewed as being of the same standard as their Gaeltacht counterparts.



I am well aware that Gaeltacht speakers are involved in Irish language term creation, some of which is good and some of which is cringe worthy, particularly those that just sound like English. Leaving them in English would be better. The problem with modern Irish of the 20th and 21st century is it has become translated English, a medium for expressing English idioms and ideas. That's not the language I want to speak. I know it is impossible to have Irish that is free of English but the influences that English bears nowadays on the Caighdeán system are ridiculous.

I feel you are underestimating the amount of Gaeltacht native speakers that have a dislike, and that's putting it mildly, for the Caighdeán.



I agree, I don't agree with the standard in its current form though. Some aspects of the Caighdeán are not prevalent in any of the dialects- nobody but learners and natives of learnes say "conas atá tú"- it is contorted Munster Irish- in Munster: Cionna(u)s/Conas 't(h)ánn tú/ Conas/ cionnus taoi, Cén chaoi ina bhuil tú, Ulster Goidé mar atá tú? Alba: Ciamar atha thu.

I can't speak for every dialect but: The use of everyday Munster (Tuiseal Ginideach and Tuiseal Tabharthach) are not accepted by the Caighdeán: e.g Tuiseal Tabharthach uatha: "teangain", Tuiseal Ginideach uatha "teangan" etc...

The Caighdeán in my opinion blights proper dialectal pronunciation on some words: e.g rith- ruith, bia- bídh, rachaidh- raghaidh etc...

The Caighdeán takes very little influence from Donegal Irish, that needs to improve- instead it has stigmatised Ulster Irish as being difficult- its only difficult because we haven't heard much of it. I understand the Caighdeán is based heavily on Connacht Irish because she is seen as the bridge, the middle ground between Ulster and Munster Irish.

More native Gaeltacht Irish people, especially those from Ulster and Munster should be seen on TG4, to promote the understanding of Ulster Irish and correct pronunciation from all the dialects. Believe it or not, but a lot of the programs on TG4 have bad pronunciation, especially cartoons- where the pronunciation should be at its strongest as it is aimed at children. Comhrá and an Nuacht are about the best and some of the Ros na Rún characters.

Stop changing the Ginideach's if they are still being used by native speakers: example: Cú (T.A uatha), Cúnna (T. A iolra), Coin (T.T uatha), Cúibh/ Coibh (T.T iolra) , Con (T.G uatha), gCon (T.G iolra), Caighdeán: http://focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=c%C3%BA

The use of native words used in the Gaeltacht to describe things: i.e arán tíortha (tósta), tigh/teach tabhairne, tigh óil (béar), mathúna/mathghamhna/ airt (béar)- gone archaic.

I don't want works written by native speakers to be standardised, because I not only use these works as enjoyment but I also use them to study the language within them.

Although I do understand there are more pressing issues for instance curriculum changes etc... and how after 14 years people can't really speak it? or they can but choose not to.

I would like to see a Caighdeán that is more flexible in displaying Gaeltacht pronunciation as well.



The reason some peoples’ views here may seem totally right winged stems from of a lack of balance between the Caighdeán and Gaeltacht Irish. Native speakers or learners of Gaeltacht Irish (like myself) want a dialect that is inclusive rather than exclusive. For instance being told that dearúd/ dearmhad is an incorrect spelling is unjust as is standardising Literature produced by native Irish Gaeltacht speakers, when there is no need to. The choice of learning your own dialect in school- where applicable, I understand teacher numbers and the difficulty around that. Thankfully, I'm in university now and we are given a choice to write Gaeltacht or standard or both- it’s nice to have that choice.

Yes the language is enjoying growth, but how much of the Irish being spoken is just translated English (or English in disguise) and the quality is quite poor. We need to get away from translating English and reach back for the very poetic soul of the language. There are also people who answer “yes” to the Irish census question, and if they were asked it in Irish a lot of those that answered yes wouldn't be able to understand it- statistics are often misleading. What is brilliant is people's attitude to Irish has changed !

I'll leave judgements about standards of Irish to you, but refusing to recognise a native speaker as a native speaker, as has been done elsewhere on this thread, is profoundly silly.

The main problem I have in this discussion is the idea that some on this board feel qualified to say that a young person from Belfast whose family has been speaking Irish as a first language for three generations is not a native speaker, specifically because their dialect is based on the standard - even though in Belfast, the dialect is much further removed from the standard than in Dublin, say!

No, non-native speech, even after 3 generations, is non-native speech.
The children brought up through Irish by learners can't speak the same was as Gaeltacht families.
In order to speak like a native a child needs to be brought up in a native-speaking environment. If he only hears non-native speakers he can't speak like a native speaker. He can't guess what he doesn't hear...

In terms of publishing in the various dialects, unfortunately the market for Irish language materials is so small that it seems it would not be financially viable to publish in each of them.

Why on earth are you being so aggressive? And sensitive! The "idiotic projects" I was referring to are attempts to butcher Gaeltacht writing with Caighdeánach translations, something you yourself brought up. My comments were clearly not a reference to you or your life. I know nothing about you, for Christ's sake. You added your opinion to a thread that was at that point discussing the need (or not) for a standard, so the only thing I wanted to say was that idiotic things done in the name of the Caighdeán, even idiotic aspects of the Caighdeán itself, do not negate the need for a standard. This has been my point from the beginning. So please, take it easy, and don't see attacks where they are not - what an unpleasant message to find at eight in the morning!

The decline of Gaeltacht dialects - and they're not dead yet! - is, in my opinion, the result of a whole series of complex reasons, more than the creation of an official standard, some of which have been evoked on this thread.

The main problem I have in this discussion is the idea that some on this board feel qualified to say that a young person from Belfast whose family has been speaking Irish as a first language for three generations is not a native speaker, specifically because their dialect is based on the standard - even though in Belfast, the dialect is much further removed from the standard than in Dublin, say!

I'll leave judgements about standards of Irish to you, but refusing to recognise a native speaker as a native speaker, as has been done elsewhere on this thread, is profoundly silly.

All Gaeltacht speakers that I know have a dislike for the Caighdeán in some respect, and I'm happy to admit that I probably know less people than you or others on this board. However, they all agree that it needs to exist in some form, and that has been the subject for much of this discussion, and the argument behind my contributions.

Who does agree with the standard in its current form? At school in Belfast, pupils learn caighdeánach spelling, but you will never, ever, hear "conas atá tú?". Like I said, it's a question of balance. When I was a kid at school, we often learned how our pronunciation was different to standard forms ("dom" pronounced "domh", for example).

Yes, I agree with your diagnosis but often this poor quality Irish is not simply the result of use of the standard, although the two can be connected. This has been my point throughout - that we can't lump all the blame for the problems of Irish on the existence of a standard. Béarlachas and use of standard Irish do not have to be the same thing.

Anyway, as Lughaidh suggests, I don't think this discussion is moving forward. Thanks to all for the exchange, and please disagree with anything I have written - but don't feel aggressed!

Le dea-mhéin,

An Braonach

I go away for a few days and WW3 has broken out! There are so many things to comment on that I don't know where to start. I am, however, going to say this: if this were my first impression of this forum, I think perhaps I would run from it and never return!

There are a lot of factors involved in determining the final product, not just whether or not your parents are native speakers. Here are some examples from my own experience (some of which relate to parallel situations in Japanese):

(1) My own kids are fluent in Japanese (well as "fluent" as preschool kids can possibly be.) It is their first language at home. Their mother is a native and their grandparent on her side come for extended visits which reinforces their standard Japanese. Their father (me) is near-native fluent but I still have a slight residual acccent and the kids can already recognise it enough to "take the piss" out of it. (They can also do a full-blown "gaijin" accent based solely on the English they know, even though they haven't heard many actual Japanese speakers with that accent.) Will they be native speakers, when they grow up? That depends on whether they get enough exposure to the language other than from their parents. I hope they have the right grounding to be able to take it up later if they want to.

(2) We know a Japanese couple, i.e., both Japanese nationals and both native speakers, whose kids were born and raised here in Australia. The parents use Japanese at home. Yet not only do the kids not speak much Japanese, but what Japanese they do speak has a heavy English accent. The two girls speak English to each other since they got to school. They try to speak Japanese to my daughters, who don't have much English yet, but it is more accented even than my own Japanese.

(3) Whole communities of Japanese speakers who moved to Brazil experienced the same phenomenon as (2) above. They can't be understood "back" in Japan. Their language is no longer Japanese. (That is not always the case, some communities abroad have managed to keep standard (or dialect) Japanese going for two or three generations.)

(4) At the other end of the spectrum, there are people like our own Gumbi. Gumbi has near-native Irish, even though his parents are not native speakers. From what I understand, his father was particular enough about the language to get Gumbi started with native pronunciation and idioms then Gumbi has followed up by taking up the language himself since then.

To me this says that even having native speaker parents is no guarantee that your kids will be native speakers, but it also gives me hope that it is also possible for non-native speakers of Irish to give their kids the necessary exposure to better Irish and the grounding to inspire their kids to take up the language later in life.

One thing I do agree with Lughaidh on, though, is that anglicised Irish is not native Irish and that people who speak anglicised Irish to their kids or students are leading their kids away from native Irish rather than towards it. To set your kids on the path to native Irish, parents first need to be aware of the difference between native Irish and pseudo-Irish, a.k.a., school Irish, Urban, or pidgin Irish. Then, even if they don't have native Irish themselves, they can at least point the kids in the right direction.