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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 11:22 am 
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An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
Saoirse wrote:
An Cionnfhaolach wrote:
there is more Irish being written now than there ever was and most of these writers have the best intentions for the language but some are doing an awful lot of damage as well.
I think if someone who is not a native speaker is writing something for publication in Irish, a native speaker should be proof reading to ensure 'natural' Irish is used. It is important to replace things like 'd'oscail a súile níos mó' with something such as 'leath na suile uirthi'. I would say precisely the same for anyone writing in any language. :computer:
<br sab="1328"><br sab="1329">Unfortunately what is happening is the opposite way around, people in offices with learned standard Irish are standardising works by native speakers! :( . In saying that not all native Irish speakers have perfect Irish themselves.
Actually, what I should have said is that it is checked to include Irish idioms and ways of expressing that are more natural to Irish.

Apparently, it seems it is financially impractical to publish books in each of the dialects as the market is so small within each individual dialact. Therefore, to publish in the caighdeán, while understandably unpopular amongst many native speakers means that books in Irish are at least published.

With such small numbers speaking each dialect, it is difficult to see an alternative. :/

Bríd Mhór wrote:
Hopefully we will met soon. I don't bite.
You are incredibly supportive and encouraging to all learners here which adds such a positive force to ILF so I know you won't. In fact, I look forward to meeting you at some stage as I feel I already know you from here! :party: It doesn't mean that I wouldn't be self conscious. :oops: The issue is entirely mine, not yours! It's ridiculous really as I speak Irish all day everyday to my children, but I can pick the way I say things and now subconsciously manoevre my way around my inadequacies. When I ask a question here (and I ask a lot!), I have usually already found a way around it, but am seeking more/better options.

I agree with a lot of what peann cleite has said. Ideally, we may love the ideal of a country where we all speak one of the rich existing dialects with ease. Like it or not, there are not enough people to ensure that it happens. Therefore, people like me scrap the idea of speaking Irish at home or we do the next best thing.

Another thing which is very damaging I think is that many Irish people view Irish as something to compete with modern European languages in school. They seem to miss the point entirely that if fluent in two languages early, they will pick up others easier. It's not as if you have a limited space for language in your brain and if you use it up with a particular language, you cannot possibly fit another! :rolleyes:

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 12:17 pm 
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Yes, the belief that "you should learn this language instead of that" (as if you couldn't learn both!) is common in France too. Sometimes I heard people telling me "why did you learn Breton? you'd better learn English" "Well, I speak English too".

Quote:
Apparently, it seems it is financially impractical to publish books in each of the dialects as the market is so small within each individual dialect. Therefore, to publish in the caighdeán, while understandably unpopular amongst many native speakers means that books in Irish are at least published.


when you say that, you're assuming that Munster and Connachta people wouldn't be able to read a book in Ulster Irish and vice-versa. But we all know it's not true: people understand each other when speaking their dialect, so obviously they'll understand a book written in another dialect too. Several years ago I read An tOileánach, and I understood it, although it's not my dialect at all...

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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 12:43 pm 
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peann cleite wrote:
Lughaidh wrote:

Nuachtlitir: in Irish it is "litir nuachta". Nuachlitir is the English "newsletter" in disguise

dianchúrsa: should be "cúrsa dian" (why not "maithleabhar" or "dubhghruaig" or "beagmhadadh" then?)

dlítheangeolaithe : should be teangeolaithe dlí

le linn na scoilbhliana : the most ridiculous... "le linn na bliana scoile" isn't Irish enough? scoilbhliana is English in disguise. And all Irish speakers surely say "na bliana scoile", there was no need to invent a new word, especially if it's composed in the wrong order...

etc etc etc

That's becoming ridiculous, really. I wonder where they'll stop with these backwards words. When everything is in the wrong order maybe? "Inniu maith leabhar mé léigh, suimiúil iontach sé bhí" :darklaugh:
If they can't help copying all new words from English, maybe they'd better write in English directly... Distorting Modern Irish that way isn't a good thing, in my opinion...


Haigh,

Níl mé cinnte go n-aontaím leat, a Lughaidh. Is é Éamonn Ó Dónaill stiúrthóir Ghaelchultúir agus is as Ghaoth Dobhair (a bhfuil an-chian agat air!) ó dhúchas é. Tá Gaeilge nadúrtha agus dúchasach aige. Chomh maith le sin, dá gcaithfeá súil ar fhoclóir Uí Dhomhnaill d'fheicfeá go mbíonn a lán samplaí ann d'fhocal dian mar réimír: dianbheart, dianbhreith, diancheart, dianchleachtadh, dianchosc srl. D'fheicfeá go mbainneann úsáid as an fhocal "nuacht" mar réimír igcásanna áirithe fosta, "nuachtbhosca", "nuachtghníomhaireacht". "Scoilcheantar" atá le feiceáil ann comh maith.

Rinne mé cúrsa le Gaelchultúir agus caithfidh mé a rá go gcuirtear béim mhór ar saibhreas na Gaeilge, comh maith le cruinneas na Gaeilge.

In general, sometimes I think you're looking too hard to find fault with modern Irish, even if I understand your concerns. It's just that, like any living language, people have different needs for it. I think an open caighdeán is important for the development of the language in the same way that it has been important for all languages at some stage. Take English, for example. English has been standardised for a long time, but that has never impeded the use of dialect orally or in literature. You only have to look at examples such as the Scottish writer Irvine Welsh or Irish writers like Pat MacCabe, among thousands of others of writers throughout the evil empire who have used dialect to give voice to powerful postcolonial discourse. People who work with the written Irish language on a professional basis need a standard in order to remove ambiguities in written work, academic or otherwise. There is no reason why caighdeánach Irsh cannot be rich and beautiful, and there is no reason why speakers or writers should exclude writing in dialect alongside that. It's a question of balance. I understand that at times it seems to you that the richness of the Irish language is diminishing, and yes, it probably is - but this is because not enough people are using and sharing the language on a daily basis.

Also, there are users of the standard that contribute to such richness, editors of and contributors to, reviews such as Comhar, for example. Things are just not as simple and black and white as you sometimes make them out to be, in my opinion. The language is going through a period of growth unprecedented in the last 150 years. It will shift and change in various directions as it finds a foothold for itself. The more people start to use the language daily in a natural and comfortable way, the more the language will find its natural development again.

Imagine a child who comes from an English speaking family but attends Gaelscoileanna throughout her school life. She will have a certain kind of Irish, probably the kind you scorn. Eventually, she raises her children in Irish, and they also attend Gaelscoileanna. These children will have an even more comfortable level, having also spoken Irish in the home, and perhaps having learned English slightly later, and will probably experiment with the language in exciting new ways. And the process continues, from generation to generation. Eventually, this kind of user of the language becomes a contributer to the richness of Irish, developing it, helping it grow. Sometimes this growth might be ugly to you, but at least it will be natural. New generations in any language often speak in ways that horrify older traditional speakers. Do you see what I'm getting at? I think we need to see the bigger picture. If this kind of growth can exist alongside the hugely important continuation of the use of Irish in the Gaeltacht, I see a future for Irish that is ripe with all kinds of exciting possibilities.

Anyway, I don't think you shouldn't be criticisng Gaelchultúir. I think the fact that you do is very much part of the development of Irish, and people like you are important in that respect. But the story is bigger than that. You're just playing one particular role. There are other roles to be played too in scéal na Gaeilge.

Tá meas an domhain agam ort sa mhéid go n-oibríonn tú ar son na Gaeilge le tuairimí comh paiseanta sin, agus tú gan ceangal dúchasach don tír seo. Is rud iontach spreagúil é. Tá mise i mo chónaí i bPáras agus mé ag athfhoghlaim na Gaeilge le beagnach bliain anuas. Tá mo chéile ag iompar clainne faoi láthair agus b'aoibheann liom an leanbh a thógáil le Ghaeilge. Níl a fhios agam go fóill más rud réadúil é (níl an Ghaeilge ar mo thoil agam ar chor ar bith agus beidh an leanbh ag caint i Spáinnis lena mháthair, Fraincis ar scoil). Níl a fhois agam go fóill má tá muinín agam asam féin chun é a dhéanamh. Feicfidh muid. Deirim liom go mbeidh an seans agam feabhas a chur ar mo chuid Gaeilge i rith an ama atá an leanbh ag fás, ag caint leis go laethúil. Leis an fhirinne a rá níl a fhios agam cén rud a dhéanfaidh mé.

Le dea-mhéin,

p


I normally stay away from topics such as this and just stick to asking questions but thought id say i agree with peann cleite and how others whose first language isnt irish can contribute. I myself tend to use the CO almost as a base and build around it with various bits from all the dialects, it might be a bit messy at times but seeming myself and my family are from Leinster many generatins back i never felt comfortable devoting myself to just one of the dialects.


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Sep 2012 2:44 pm 
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Cliathach wrote:
I normally stay away from topics such as this and just stick to asking questions but thought id say i agree with peann cleite and how others whose first language isnt irish can contribute. I myself tend to use the CO almost as a base and build around it with various bits from all the dialects, it might be a bit messy at times but seeming myself and my family are from Leinster many generatins back i never felt comfortable devoting myself to just one of the dialects.
Don't stay away from these kinds of topics - particularly as I too am a child of the caighdeán! :mrgreen: I did not even realise that until years later. I wish I were brought up in the Gaeltacht and had a natural dialect, but I wasn't. I was taught by lots of different teachers. I love that there are dialects. I wish we all had that opportunity, but realistically.... :no:

This forum is a brilliant way to learn bits and pieces of the various dialects. The other day one of my children said something was 'iontach deas' and a friend seemed surprised and said, 'that's Ulster Irish'. My reply? That's ILF for you! Just a little something I picked up without realising it!

At the end of the day, we may be disagreeing about the details, but we are actually all on the same page about the big stuff - i.e. that we all want Irish to survive and thrive and are doing what we can to make that happen. We have a thriving online community here. :party: We just need to drag others in by degrees.... :twisted: Before they know it, they'll be hooked. If anyone thinks that nicotine is the most addictive thing there is, they haven't experienced ILF.... :twisted:

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